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Post by GigaChad Sigma. on Nov 16, 2023 12:34:49 GMT
The degree of division in the Labour party over a non actionable "vote" is alarming.
What happens when it comes to making a decision on immigration? On Ukraine? On the NHS?
Where do I look? The Greens? The Lib Dems? Ed Davey seems to be a very credible politician but I haven't seen or heard much from the party in months.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Nov 16, 2023 12:38:01 GMT
To be honest this particular vote is quite unique and about a very emotive subject.
I don't forsee this level of division over most policies.
Or hope not anyway.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Nov 16, 2023 12:58:33 GMT
In terms of Jess Philips, I'm also a little uncomfortable with this idea that she's picked a "terrible" or "performative" hill to die on. Sounds very presumptive to me, borderline patronizing. What has she said previously on the matter? What is the make-up of her constituency? How strong has the local feeling on this particular issue been amongst voters there? These will all presumably have been factor in her decision making, no? Like I said this has never been a big issue for her. She’s much more about domestic policy and in particular women’s rights. She’s not part of the far left side of the party that go big on this issue. She was anti-Corbyn. She’s in Labour Friends of Israel. She’s been vocally critical of Islam in relation to women’s rights. Not to say that any of that means she can’t want a ceasefire but it is a strange hill for her to die on. I agree it’s likely about her constituents. I's say all of that makes it quite likely that she honestly believes in a ceasefire. It could be constituents too. |
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kal
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Post by kal on Nov 16, 2023 13:01:13 GMT
Everyone believes in a notional ceasefire. It’s a completely inane pointless thing to say without some sort of position ok what the terms might be. And it’s again absolutely 100% performative to demand one. It means nothing.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 16, 2023 13:04:51 GMT
In a two-party system, to all practical intents and purposes, surely it's less about a % threshold and more about which of the parties is a better option than the other?
I mean, this is kind of the 'would you vote for 99% Hitler?' argument they have in America every four years. If they are both unpaletable choices, I dont really blame anyone for noping out completely. Realistically, you want Labour to be a real alternative not 'the tories but 2004'. I wouldnt have voted for that then and I really dont blame anyone for saying 'fuck this guy' now. |
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Post by Whizzo on Nov 16, 2023 13:06:26 GMT
In other meaningless Parliamentary news it's clear the "Rwanda is really nice, ignore the evidence" Bill is never getting through Parliament this side of a general election so it's all bullshit.
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Nov 16, 2023 13:08:12 GMT
I dunno, I've heard on radio chatter that hamas have heard Jess has asked for a ceasefire and they're now considering it.
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Post by Dougs on Nov 16, 2023 13:10:36 GMT
In other meaningless Parliamentary news it's clear the "Rwanda is really nice, ignore the evidence" Bill is never getting through Parliament this side of a general election so it's all bullshit. The Lords don't tend to block things though. Regardless of manifesto commitments or not. They might be able to frustrate with scheduling but the whips control that. And it's not as if there's a lot of Bills slated... |
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Post by Whizzo on Nov 16, 2023 13:15:26 GMT
I think the Lords will probably put the stops on something that would still break international law, the whole new treaty and bill stuff makes no sense.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 16, 2023 13:16:43 GMT
Bongo Heracles I don't entirely disagree. Truth be told, I've noped out multiple times (and in various ways) in the past, including the last GE (when I voted Lib Dem, such was my distaste for Corbyn). For a multitude of reasons - ranging from all the shit that has gone down post-2019, to my preference for Starmer over Aldi Gandalf - I've reached a point whereby I'm willing to vote Labour this time around. I don't blame anyone for feeling differently, but I do blame the Momentum lot who are actively working to undermine Starmer - to me, that's not the same as a member of the electorate looking at the available options and struggling to feel enthused. It's a whole other can of tuna.
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Post by simple on Nov 16, 2023 13:18:27 GMT
The response I’ve seen my (Conservative) MP giving people was a mix of UK is providing aid funding and its pointless demanding a ceasefire when neither side has any interest in adhering to one. His argument is Israel are out to end Hamas and any pause will allow Hamas to regroup and that Hamas will never stop trying to attack Israel because they don’t want Israel to exist.
Its a long letter and some of the details and how its written sound like it must be a template that the whips have given the Tory backbenchers.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Nov 16, 2023 13:28:50 GMT
Everyone believes in a notional ceasefire. It’s a completely inane pointless thing to say without some sort of position ok what the terms might be. And it’s again absolutely 100% performative to demand one. It means nothing. The same could be said about 90% of UK parliament votes/resolutions about things happening overseas. |
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kal
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Post by kal on Nov 16, 2023 13:34:39 GMT
Everyone believes in a notional ceasefire. It’s a completely inane pointless thing to say without some sort of position ok what the terms might be. And it’s again absolutely 100% performative to demand one. It means nothing. The same could be said about 90% of UK parliament votes/resolutions about things happening overseas. ok but we’re talking about Jess Phillips and you saying it makes complete sense for her to resign over this issue despite having no meaningful interest in it previously. |
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Post by Whizzo on Nov 16, 2023 13:42:08 GMT
Colin from Portsmouth is really trying to have a cardiac arrest today.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Nov 16, 2023 13:49:42 GMT
The same could be said about 90% of UK parliament votes/resolutions about things happening overseas. ok but we’re talking about Jess Phillips and you saying it makes complete sense for her to resign over this issue despite having no meaningful interest in it previously. More that I'm surprised that people think she wouldn't resign over such an issue rather than voting against her conscience on it. From the little I know of her it's exactly what I'd expect her to do. |
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Nov 16, 2023 13:54:09 GMT
And it's not entirely incorrect, really. It also appears to be the most measured and, crucially, the international response
The bit about the Tory letter.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Nov 16, 2023 14:23:03 GMT
Yeah if you boil down the basic logic:
- Hamas aren't going to respect a ceasefire (they'll just rearm then attack again)
- You can't make any progress on a 2 state solution with them
- Israel isn't going to stop until they can guarantee their own security with regards to Hamas
- Several other local powers who'd be useful (Saudi, Egypt) also kind of want Hamas gone
If your eventual outcome, which most people want, is a 2 state solution. How does a ceasefire get closer to that, given the stuff above?
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 16, 2023 14:30:48 GMT
We dont negotiate with 'terrorists' and we would never tell Israel what to do, so who would we even make a demand to?
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Nov 16, 2023 14:36:49 GMT
God?
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X201
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Post by X201 on Nov 16, 2023 18:20:37 GMT
Apparently there’s a shrinking workforce and it’s causing problems for the UK by stifling growth.
If only there were people who wanted to come here to work and make a better life for themselves.
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Post by Trowel 🏴 on Nov 16, 2023 18:32:29 GMT
The Scottish health secretary's iPad story continues to crack me up; it's playing out exactly as everyone thought it would.
Next steps in the playbook are: it wasn't just football, then the inevitable resignation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2023 18:41:12 GMT
Not happy with Labour in this debate really. Basically agree with Kal but they just HAVE to ‘do a Momentum’ at the one time in years they actually have some IRL momentum, and when they are actually needed.
I see Hunt is out with the next axe lined up on benefits. Not ‘sick’ by our definition? We’ll axe your benefits in six months unless you take something completely unsuitable, probably with an unreasonable commute, and when we tell you to. We’ll take from the deserving unemployed and give it to the sick unemployed and not change anything in the NHS. And we’ll doubtless issue some quiet memos to decision makers to fail set targets of sickness assessments to get one group knocked back to the other so we can cut them too.
I’ve worked as a benefit advisor doing tribunal repping, the works. It doesn’t take somebody that’s done that to know that a large percentage of those classed as ‘simply’ unemployed will in fact suffer from physical and/or mental health issues that are very real to them but don’t qualify them for the sickness elements because the system is designed that way very deliberately.
People just don’t get how little support particularly single unemployed people actually receive. It boils my p*ss.
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Post by Chopsen on Nov 16, 2023 20:03:54 GMT
Coming back to the "performative" thing. (sorry, been at work).
Sure, a lot of politics is performative, but that doesn't make it *good* politics. It more reflects I think the type of people who go in to politics, and what motivates them and their own weaknesses. Ideology and, to be unkind, a degree of narcissism and inflated self belief. "Showbiz for ugly people."
Sure performaive bullshit happens all the time (I cited the UCU vote a while back), but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't call out bullshit when it happens.
Also: would I vote for 99% Hitler? Well, it depends what the alternative is. If the alternative is 100% Hitler then maybe.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 16, 2023 20:13:30 GMT
Also: would I vote for 99% Hitler? Well, it depends what the alternative is. If the alternative is 100% Hitler then maybe.
This is where I am, too.
Obviously 0% Hitler would be ideal, and as close to it as possible would be my strong preference; however, if you only have two realistic options (and saying "Neither of the above, thanks (also, fuck Hitler)" will let the worse option win), I'll go with the lesser of the available evils.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 16, 2023 20:23:24 GMT
Well, that’s kind of the point. If you only have a choice between 100% Hitler and 99% Hitler, you can’t decry people for disengaging.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t vote for them/him, I’m just not keen on a lot of the supercilious harrying of people who are just sick of being offered less bad options rather than an actual good one.
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Nov 16, 2023 21:00:59 GMT
Apparently there’s a shrinking workforce and it’s causing problems for the UK by stifling growth. If only there were people who wanted to come here to work and make a better life for themselves. They are net migration is the highest it's ever been, north of 600k a year |
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Post by Whizzo on Nov 16, 2023 21:24:55 GMT
Who needs all these bloody nets? I thought our fishing industry was in the shitter? Literally given what the water companies are up to.
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Post by pierrepressure on Nov 16, 2023 21:27:37 GMT
I must admit I've taken my eye off them for quite some time but as we're all waiting for the inevitable heat death of our planet, it's a shame there's still really no room for The Green Party.
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Post by Whizzo on Nov 16, 2023 21:29:13 GMT
There's no room for the Green Party while they've still got their stupid anti-nuclear policy, I don't think anyone wants to have them but there's really no choice until either much, much better electrical storage or fusion is developed.
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Post by Whizzo on Nov 16, 2023 21:30:10 GMT
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