geefe
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Post by geefe on Oct 12, 2023 11:02:20 GMT
It's really difficult for me to feel sympathy for people who spend £10,000+ per year on their kid's education, no matter what their circumstances, when I've seen plenty of mainstream kids not even have a start in life because of factors beyond their control.
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Post by Dougs on Oct 12, 2023 11:03:09 GMT
It is tough. We fought tooth and nail to get my youngest an EHCP (what they used to call statemented) purely in prep for her moving to secondary school next year. They seem to have a good SEN provision but we shall have to see. The cheaper private school don't take SEN kids because of results (my mate I mentioned had to drop.his youngest down a year to get in). And the other is even further out of reach.
The eldest is at the same school and academically is doing well, but is struggling socially. Every year there's some issue or other (see parenting thread). He would definitely benefit from smaller classes and less ability for little shits to get away with stuff but as i say, can't afford it at all.
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Post by technoish on Oct 12, 2023 11:03:44 GMT
My lil sis failed out of state sector (there isn't really a private one where we grew up), and was then failed by fairly bogus private provision so never finished school.
After moving to UK she did a btec, then an HND, then undergrad, then a masters and last year a PhD...
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Post by stuz359 on Oct 12, 2023 11:07:08 GMT
Well with respect your experience may not be the experience of others. My eldest is not going to get any degree, let alone three degrees, and she was sinking fast in the perfectly lovely state school where she was left to flounder. I don't blame the school at all. No way could they have reasonably given her the attention she needed. But when she did finally get to a school where she was able to receive more tailored, focused, and individual attention, it literally saved her.
TLDR: what I bought her by putting her into an independent school was not 'a weird sense of entitlement' or 'overconfidence' but the ability to read and to be able to do basic maths.
My argument is that if you abolish private education, it would raise standards at state schools because it would be demanded. I fully understand your own concerns and wanting to do best by your own child. I wonder if what we really need is complete reform, having state schools standards raised and maybe having several support schools in addition to state schools for pupils that need the more tailored approach. However, it is interesting that a large proportion of our political and journalistic class are privately educated and went to oxbridge. I don't care how ethnically diverse they are, but they aren't diverse in terms of their educational background. |
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Oct 12, 2023 11:13:12 GMT
It is just speaking from my experience; having only met privately educated people once I was an adult. But the main quality I've observed of it is the over-confidence and the shmoozing. Even working in tech I've never had a boss at the director kind of level who wasn't privately educated and for the most part with things like an English Lit degree despite it being an R&D department. Or just privately educated, southern BBC journalists, they're literally the worst.
So I'd fix state provision for learning difficulties, or set up separate schools the state pays for under those conditions. But the whole other things needs to fucking end, you should not be able to buy a leg up in the world like that. Which still feels like the main point of these schools. I mean how else do you explain the entire career of Matt Hancock?
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senso
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Post by senso on Oct 12, 2023 11:14:20 GMT
SNP MP defects to Tories
Think it's about time a GE is called. Westminister needs to be reset as it is quickly turning into shambles.
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Post by Whizzo on Oct 12, 2023 11:18:34 GMT
I don't think Labour will be unhappy with the direction of travel with that defection.
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Post by Chopsen on Oct 12, 2023 11:26:28 GMT
I understand Otto's motivations, but his situation does not reflect everybody I know who has either been to a fee paying school or sent their kids to one. It absolutely is about the social conditioning and the contacts.
Fwiw the VAT proposal feels very performative to me. It's not going to radically change the educational landscape for kids, and is not going to raise a lot in the grand scheme of things I'd imagine, when compared to how much is raised already.
The public school system is absolutely an instrument of maintaining social stratification in the UK and I'm all up for nuking it from orbit.
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Oct 12, 2023 11:38:48 GMT
Yeah. There's even stratification within private and public. My cousin, privately educated Oxford graduates, thinks his Eton mates are wankers.
Just fuck off the lot of them.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Oct 12, 2023 11:43:43 GMT
My mate went to private school on a military ticket and used to get endless grief from the more well heeled Ruperts who went there.
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Oct 12, 2023 11:49:20 GMT
My mate went to private school on a military ticket and used to get endless grief from the more well heeled Ruperts who went there. Same. Had friends I only really saw at Christmas and summer. They were treated as scum by some of the other kids. |
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Post by Vandelay on Oct 12, 2023 11:59:45 GMT
Going back a little bit, as private healthcare hasn't been mentioned for a couple of pages, but I don't think you can equate the same lapse of principles on that as you can with private education. Perhaps my position of no kids (hopefully yet), makes it easy to say this, but no one is going to die if they have a state education instead of a private one.
Might they have a harder life? Possibly. Might they have a pay packet not quite as good as one if they went to a fee paying school? Almost certainly. Besides certain circumstances like Otto's, I would never consider putting a kid through private education (not that I'm likely able to ever afford that), despite those setbacks for my child, as they can still be healthy and be able to enjoy their life.
If going private with healthcare meant they could get a needed operation quicker or medication that would ease pain more effectively then I wouldn't for a second consider not doing that. I would still feel it is wrong, but when it comes to the health of a loved one and potentially life and death decisions, principals won't help anyone.
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Post by Reviewer on Oct 12, 2023 12:20:11 GMT
At my kids school they were supposed to switch to green because they’re going two tier instead of three around here. That got delayed so you can choose to wear the old or new.
I still have no idea at all why a colour change is needed. It does mean some days ours will wear a random combination of red and green.
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dogbot
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Post by dogbot on Oct 12, 2023 12:21:48 GMT
Well, tis the season. Nearly.  |
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Oct 12, 2023 12:21:51 GMT
My school's uniform was such a racket it infuriated me even back then. There was literally only one shop that you could buy the jumpers from.
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Post by mothercruncher on Oct 12, 2023 12:23:50 GMT
I’m not sure you need a TLDR when the bit you’re TLDR’ing is only about four lines, but very happy your daughter is in a better spot!
TLDR; being a twat.
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Post by technoish on Oct 12, 2023 12:34:47 GMT
Our school the only thing you buy is a bright blue jumper or cardigan which isn't expensive (under a tenner), or a PE t shirt. The rest is dark trousers and white polo shirts, which you can dirt cheap (made by slave labour...) wherever you want. We upgraded to cotton shirts this year.
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otto
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Post by otto on Oct 12, 2023 13:02:39 GMT
It's really difficult for me to feel sympathy for people who spend £10,000+ per year on their kid's education, no matter what their circumstances, when I've seen plenty of mainstream kids not even have a start in life because of factors beyond their control. Not asking for your sympathy, just asking you to save your anger and contempt for the bastards who ruined an excellent state education sector leaving well-off people with the choice of bailing on state or failing their kids, and the less well-off people with no choice at all. |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Oct 12, 2023 13:17:43 GMT
It is just speaking from my experience; having only met privately educated people once I was an adult. But the main quality I've observed of it is the over-confidence and the shmoozing. Even working in tech I've never had a boss at the director kind of level who wasn't privately educated and for the most part with things like an English Lit degree despite it being an R&D department. Or just privately educated, southern BBC journalists, they're literally the worst. So I'd fix state provision for learning difficulties, or set up separate schools the state pays for under those conditions. But the whole other things needs to fucking end, you should not be able to buy a leg up in the world like that. Which still feels like the main point of these schools. I mean how else do you explain the entire career of Matt Hancock? As someone who has never been confident, especially with schmoozing, I wonder if it's just that the privately educated people you've noticed as being privately educated are the people like that.
I wonder if my school was a bit low-rent private though, since almost no one there went to oxbridge, or even wanted to. I could probably have got the grades, but it sounded fucking horrible to me.
Personally, I suffered from a massive lack of confidence in primary school, and the secondary school I'd have ended up going to was both massive and pretty rough at the time. It just gave me the space to gain a little more confidence. In my family's case I don't think it was remotely about giving me a leg up or contacts (I have fuck all!), it was more about finding the school that would suit me best.
In the same way that parents might choose a small country school over a big city school for one kind of kid, but the opposite for another kind of kid.
I would 100% support abolishing all private schools and using that as a catalyst to improve state schools though.
Though from what I understand, even with state schools, the ability to buy a house in the catchment area of the good schools is pretty important. (?)
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Post by clemfandango on Oct 12, 2023 13:25:43 GMT
My daughters high school is full on hogwarts. No change out of £300 by the time you’ve bought all the compulsory uniform stuff and shoes. Think it’s subsidised for low income families though.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Oct 12, 2023 13:29:55 GMT
We're currently looking at schools for our little boy now and yes private schools as well as state schools. There are simply not enough primary schools of the standard we want in this area. We both went to state school, we both have successful careers but we're doing what everyone does, we want the best for our children and for them to hopefully have a better life than us.
That might not be possible due to environmental reasons but we can't just do nothing and let him roll the dice with any old school. Private education is also no guarantee of success but it does take away some of the luck aspect.
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Oct 12, 2023 13:32:37 GMT
That's also the elephant in the room - we have an effective private state system. Ofstend, funding, etc makes housing near "good" state schools expensive.
You try buying a 3 bed family home near one of the grammar schools in Manchester. Not happening for any sensible price.
So you could take that £10k a year on your child and stick that onto a property near a good state school.
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Post by Dougs on Oct 12, 2023 13:33:08 GMT
Private for primary level seems overkill to me. Unless they are all Needs Improvement.
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Post by knighty on Oct 12, 2023 14:27:12 GMT
My kids go to a private primary school on scholarship. Uniform list is ridiculous. 45 quid for the sports hold-all? 25 quid sports t shirts, sports shorts, god help you if you want trackers as well. Beret at twenty quid (don’t forget to get the badge to see on for a fiver on top), flies off in the wind on way to school. Lovely.
Haven’t even spent a penny on blazer and other school stuff yet and it’s £150 just to get them on a sports field with half decent kit.
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Post by elstoof on Oct 12, 2023 14:52:10 GMT
We're currently looking at schools for our little boy now and yes private schools as well as state schools. There are simply not enough primary schools of the standard we want in this area. We both went to state school, we both have successful careers but we're doing what everyone does, we want the best for our children and for them to hopefully have a better life than us. That might not be possible due to environmental reasons but we can't just do nothing and let him roll the dice with any old school. Private education is also no guarantee of success but it does take away some of the luck aspect. We had the same issue when we lived in N1, so we went through some public school 4+ bollocks and placed deposits at some private City schools just as a backup, they’re not great - converted office buildings, no outside space apart from a nearby park etc. just somewhere to dump your kids on the way to the office which you have to pay for. 4+ entry process was pretty horrific. in the end we simply moved house |
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Oct 12, 2023 15:01:03 GMT
Part of the reason we moved here was the schools, private and state, however we made a very big school boy and girl error, we didn't think of the catchment area when we chose the exact house. Turns out we're not in any of the good schools catchment area, just outside. Apparently this won't be an issue but still gets you worrying and again leads to looking at private schools.
This area is clearly primed for it cause there are a shit load of private schools and some of them are amongst the best in the country. They also have a selection process for a fucking 4 year which to me sounds like a nightmare but my wife insists on at least attempting this path as well as the state schools.
We certainly don't make it easy for anyone to just select the closest state school. I am ideologically very much for fucking over private schools to improve state schools but now it comes to actually choosing it's not easy.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Oct 12, 2023 15:03:56 GMT
That's also the elephant in the room - we have an effective private state system. Ofstend, funding, etc makes housing near "good" state schools expensive. I touched on it on the last page but, yes, we had a choice from a handful of good/outstanding schools within a few miles of my Tory HQ whereas my mates kid has to take two busses to get to school in Birmingham. |
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Post by elstoof on Oct 12, 2023 15:11:29 GMT
Our closest secondary school is one of the best in the country, outstanding rating, in the top 5% of exam results nationally, it’s 450m away from our house. We weren’t in the catchment area for it for the last 6 years
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Oct 12, 2023 15:13:00 GMT
Our closest secondary school is one of the best in the country, outstanding rating, in the top 5% of exam results nationally, it’s 450m away from our house. We weren’t in the catchment area for it for the last 6 years This is the problem! It's fucking bullshit. |
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geefe
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Post by geefe on Oct 12, 2023 15:44:07 GMT
That is spectacularly British
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