Lizard
Junior Member
I love ploughmans
Posts: 4,487
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Post by Lizard on Sept 29, 2021 7:13:35 GMT
UKIP were going to get a platform regardless of their success in EU elections. They were articulating something deeply felt by some voters and many Tory politicians who were already giving it a platform. Their major weapon, though, was Farage - he could cut through like the slimy car salesman he is.
FPTP may have kept them out of parliament, but if they had been in parliament under a PR system they may have acted as a pressure valve for Eurosceptics, and we might've got a more meaningful debate about the EU rather than the Tories panicking and promising a referendum. More importantly than that though is that they won more than 10% of the popular vote in the 2015 general election, but were not present in parliament - to my mind this is wrong. And I fucking hate UKIP.
FPTP is a fucking travesty, it disenfranchises vast swathes of voters and makes political parties lazy, especially in safe seats. PR is not perfect, but the political culture of the UK would benefit from the shake-up in the medium-to-long term IMO.
However, as others have said, the public do not understand and/or do not care about the electoral system. Many of them don't even understand how FPTP works and they buy the Labour and Tories extremely partial pro-FPTP arguments hook, line and sinker. They don't even know that voting against an incumbent in many safe seats is about as useful as complaining about bird shit to a group of pigeons.
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Post by Dougs on Sept 29, 2021 7:31:56 GMT
Agree with that. It's not even the electoral system that people don't engage with. It's politics more widely. There's a real disassociation with what is happening and how we got there. I don't blame people, I used to be the same.
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Lizard
Junior Member
I love ploughmans
Posts: 4,487
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Post by Lizard on Sept 29, 2021 7:38:39 GMT
True. It's why people like Johnson and Farage thrive - they're PR savvy and well-connected to the media, so they can cut through the apathy in ways that most politicians struggle to do.
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Post by simple on Sept 29, 2021 8:07:09 GMT
I remember years ago reading a thing that basically said UKIP representatives on the Daily Politics would be polite, well behaved and give the producers exactly what they wanted, whereas lefties were grouchy and uncooperative. So when it came to inviting future guests the prickly ones weren’t asked back but the Kippers got regular shouts.
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Post by imamazed on Sept 29, 2021 8:46:55 GMT
FPTP may have kept them out of parliament, but if they had been in parliament under a PR system they may have acted as a pressure valve for Eurosceptics, and we might've got a more meaningful debate about the EU rather than the Tories panicking and promising a referendum. You may be right about that, but there's a whole lot of conjecture there. That might have happened. Or, they might have governed with the Tories in an inevitable coalition of the Gammons thanks to their electoral momentum. You could say the same thing about the "Eurosceptic wing" of the Tory party itself re pressure valve btw. |
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X201
Full Member
Posts: 5,115
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Post by X201 on Sept 29, 2021 9:24:05 GMT
I remember years ago reading a thing that basically said UKIP representatives on the Daily Politics would be polite, well behaved and give the producers exactly what they wanted, whereas lefties were grouchy and uncooperative. So when it came to inviting future guests the prickly ones weren’t asked back but the Kippers got regular shouts. I've got a vague recollection that it was someone on the EG forum who worked in TV that said it |
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Post by simple on Sept 29, 2021 9:24:50 GMT
I think Stephen Bush might’ve said it in the New Statesman too
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,634
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 29, 2021 9:53:24 GMT
I remember years ago reading a thing that basically said UKIP representatives on the Daily Politics would be polite, well behaved and give the producers exactly what they wanted, whereas lefties were grouchy and uncooperative. So when it came to inviting future guests the prickly ones weren’t asked back but the Kippers got regular shouts. I've got a vague recollection that it was someone on the EG forum who worked in TV that said it That was me. My wife works in teevee. The tories are all cunts to a man but the more fringe politicians know how to play the game and are more than accommodating. Makes sense, really, and partly explains how Farage got the insane amount of exposure he had. He would turn up to the opening of an envelope at the exact right time and be enthusiastic about it. |
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,634
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 29, 2021 9:54:51 GMT
As a sweetener to that, she also said that Vic Reeves is the nicest person she has ever met.
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dogbot
Full Member
Posts: 8,738
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Post by dogbot on Sept 29, 2021 10:05:49 GMT
Big day for Sir Keith today. In his first conference speech setting out his vision for the future of Labour, he's got to:
Be inspiring
Unite the party
Hold Boris to account
Announce policies that will convince people to vote Labour
I wish him luck. I'm not sure all that is achievable but we'll know more later, eh?
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Post by Psychotext on Sept 29, 2021 10:08:22 GMT
Big day for Sir Keith today. In his first conference speech setting out his vision for the future of Labour, he's got to: Be inspiring Unite the party Hold Boris to account Announce policies that will convince people to vote Labour I wish him luck. I'm not sure all that is achievable but we'll know more later, eh? I fully expect the hard left to go after him no matter what... so point two there looks pretty fucking unlikely. |
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Post by Whizzo on Sept 29, 2021 10:17:59 GMT
His speech will probably be picked apart like a body on CSI by the press while anything the clown in No 10 says in a sound bite gets glossed over as everyone knows he talks shit.
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,634
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 29, 2021 10:18:08 GMT
Not easy when youve still got a hardcore of gimps chanting 'oh, jeremy corbyn'
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dogbot
Full Member
Posts: 8,738
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Post by dogbot on Sept 29, 2021 10:20:34 GMT
Big day for Sir Keith today. In his first conference speech setting out his vision for the future of Labour, he's got to: Be inspiring Unite the party Hold Boris to account Announce policies that will convince people to vote Labour I wish him luck. I'm not sure all that is achievable but we'll know more later, eh? I fully expect the hard left to go after him no matter what... so point two there looks pretty fucking unlikely. Indeed, agreed. We're in a bit of a cleft at the moment. They won't relinquish their position of power and they won't leave because they need the umbrella of the Labour party to legitimise them, especially after Dear Leader's crushing defeats at the ballot box. Worrying, because I think whatever your party affiliation, we need a strong opposition to any government and currently, our opposition is more interested in infighting than in challenging the Tories. |
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Post by Dougs on Sept 29, 2021 10:32:45 GMT
As a sweetener to that, she also said that Vic Reeves is the nicest person she has ever met. Discovered the other day that he's deaf in one ear due to a benign tumour. |
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Post by simple on Sept 29, 2021 10:40:55 GMT
Not easy when youve still got a hardcore of gimps chanting 'oh, jeremy corbyn' Thats good to hear, he’s got the kind of status where it could be so easy and unsurprising if he was secretly a prick. |
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Post by simple on Sept 29, 2021 10:45:52 GMT
I wonder if David Lammy will be getting pelters and calls of traitor for saying Corbyn lost, time to move on after being a favourite of the meme-based activists during the previous leadership
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Post by imamazed on Sept 29, 2021 10:55:49 GMT
He's good is David Lammy. Labour could do well to use him more prominently.
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,634
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 29, 2021 10:58:41 GMT
I'd vote for Lammy. He seems like he gives a fuck which is, honestly, half the battle.
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Post by djronz on Sept 29, 2021 11:04:54 GMT
UKIP were going to get a platform regardless of their success in EU elections. They were articulating something deeply felt by some voters and many Tory politicians who were already giving it a platform. Their major weapon, though, was Farage - he could cut through like the slimy car salesman he is. FPTP may have kept them out of parliament, but if they had been in parliament under a PR system they may have acted as a pressure valve for Eurosceptics, and we might've got a more meaningful debate about the EU rather than the Tories panicking and promising a referendum. More importantly than that though is that they won more than 10% of the popular vote in the 2015 general election, but were not present in parliament - to my mind this is wrong. And I fucking hate UKIP. FPTP is a fucking travesty, it disenfranchises vast swathes of voters and makes political parties lazy, especially in safe seats. PR is not perfect, but the political culture of the UK would benefit from the shake-up in the medium-to-long term IMO. However, as others have said, the public do not understand and/or do not care about the electoral system. Many of them don't even understand how FPTP works and they buy the Labour and Tories extremely partial pro-FPTP arguments hook, line and sinker. They don't even know that voting against an incumbent in many safe seats is about as useful as complaining about bird shit to a group of pigeons. Agree with this totally, if the views of UKip had have been represented in Parliament in ocordance to the amount that voted for them then paradoxically this whole sorry brexit saga may never have been allowed to fester. Much like how this current government thinks that the "country" spoke for what it wanted when they got in again despite only a minority of the country actually voting for them. It allows them to conveniently ignore the majority of people's views. |
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Post by Dougs on Sept 29, 2021 11:05:05 GMT
Aye, one of the better ones imo.
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Post by Whizzo on Sept 29, 2021 11:41:16 GMT
I'd vote for Lammy. He seems like he gives a fuck which is, honestly, half the battle. Saw some of his conference speech yesterday and couldn't believe it was the first time he been on the platform. How the fuck does that happen? He's been an MP for ages and a great presence in the House and it took until 2021! |
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askew
Full Member
Posts: 6,807
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Post by askew on Sept 29, 2021 11:43:47 GMT
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Post by Whizzo on Sept 29, 2021 12:03:13 GMT
I couldn't believe what Couzens did when I read that this morning, he should never be let out of prison.
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Post by Whizzo on Sept 29, 2021 12:37:08 GMT
Thought what I saw of Starmer's speech was mostly good, still can't see how you "make Brexit work" it's probably just to placate the Brexit supporters but it's a logical fallacy no matter how "good politics" it could be. Hearing him praise the good bits of New Labour is something the previous leader would never have done. The hecklers were a bunch of twunts though.
It was far too fucking long though, you could nearly watch Endgame while it was going on.
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Post by Reviewer on Sept 29, 2021 12:41:41 GMT
The die hard left wing/Labour people seem unable to understand that if they aren’t in power then there’s very little they can do to improve the country or things they have an issue with.
They seem happier too shout from the sidelines with their holier than thou attitude.
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Post by TheSaint on Sept 29, 2021 12:43:59 GMT
The biggest difference that is apparent between Starmer and the previous bunch is that he actually wants to be prime minister.
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Post by Dougs on Sept 29, 2021 12:52:45 GMT
The length of the speech just shows how much there is to do - it's not just policy and winning over voters, it's sorting out the mess internally too.
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Post by imamazed on Sept 29, 2021 13:02:23 GMT
"Work.
Care.
Equality.
Security.
I think of these values as British values. I think of them as the values that take you right to the heart of the British public. That is where this party must always be.
And I think of these values as my heirloom. The word loom, from which that idea comes, is another word for tool.
Work.
Care.
Equality,
Security.
These are the tools of my trade.
And with them I will go to work."
Good lord. That means absolutely nothing. Otherwise, it was fine. Which is all it needed to be.
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Rich
Junior Member
Posts: 1,988 
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Post by Rich on Sept 29, 2021 13:05:00 GMT
It was a good speech, and if given the time of day could start to win back people who want to see an adult in charge again. The hecklers only helped distance him from the previous lot.
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