Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2024 21:35:58 GMT
It obviously pales in significance to the corruption of the last (5?!) administrations but I’m really quite pissed off with Starmer to be honest. It really does make me question his public service speech when he was inaugurated and he’d best prove me wrong now. The worst thing is that I’m out with my f*cking dad tomorrow. Am never going to hear the end of it.
This is almost as bad as the Imperium of Man.
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 20, 2024 21:36:28 GMT
Crikey, the write ups of the first day of the reform conference are more than a bit sobering.
This is interesting: yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-is-the-uk-government-handling-climate-changeThere is a not insignificant minority (~25%) that feel the government is doing and spending too much on climate change. However, if you break it down by party voting behaviour, it's really a almost irrelevantly small proportion for each of the parties, other than the conservatives (~35%). It looks like their doing the same with climate change as they did with euro-scepticism. Picking a wedge issue within the Tories and using it as using it to pick off votes by attrition. |
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Post by Reviewer on Sept 20, 2024 22:01:28 GMT
Break it down between old people that it’s not going to impact and young people who will be fucked and it’s clear where the issue is. People only care about themselves.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 21, 2024 1:48:30 GMT
At least now the clothes issue is sorted so i can sleep at night
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Frog
Full Member
Posts: 7,293
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Post by Frog on Sept 21, 2024 8:23:53 GMT
In those free silk pyjamas you were gifted!
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 21, 2024 8:24:52 GMT
So smoooth...
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Post by Whizzo on Sept 21, 2024 9:23:05 GMT
The garbage spouted by Robert Jenrick about council house tenants is pretty much something that Reform fuckwits like to hear but anyone else thinks it's the racist dog whistling that it is. How someone so obviously bent is going to be Tory leader is pretty shocking really but he'll be incapable of turning that shit heap of a party around at least. They may get some of their former supporters back from Reform but it's not going to help them much otherwise.
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Post by Vandelay on Sept 21, 2024 9:54:53 GMT
I do find it weird that the clothes is the thing most people and the media are hung up on. It is effectively just a party donation to help them get into power and £20k is fairly small fry. I'm sure if Labour had said to Lord Alli that they wanted to spend the money on leaflets they could have and it would have gone completely unnoticed. Buying the clothes equally has an actual purpose towards getting elected though.
Personally, I find the hospitality Arsenal tickets more egregious (more so, but still not enough for me to care that much), as there is no purpose to that other than for Starmer to enjoy the football. Even that has more nuance than is allowed though, as he is paying for the season ticket and is given the box for security reasons. I'm sure he would rather be in the stands with the other fans.
Also worth noting that the numbers of freebies Labour in opposition have received might seem high by comparison to what the government received, but that is because government ministers don't need to declare freebies if they are part of the responsibilities. So, those tickets to the latest West End show that get given to Minister of Culture don't have to be declared, but the shadow minister would have to.
In the grand scheme of things though, none of this really matters. Handled correctly, this should have gone away after a day or two and we shouldn't still be speaking about it for however long this has been going on.
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 21, 2024 10:13:32 GMT
Yeah it's weird how things get traction.
Listening to the FT politics podcast they made the point that they reported on the football tickets ages ago and nobody gave a fuck, and now all of a sudden with the clothes it's seems to be a complete outrage.
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,656
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 21, 2024 10:15:46 GMT
The fundamental problem is that if you’re going to campaign on change, people expect fucking change.
They needed to be whiter than white and it didn’t take mystic meg so see that they were going to immediately get hammered for hiring their families into fake jobs and taking ‘gifts’, declared or not, from millionaire donors.
People *do* expect them to be better than the tories. They have a weight of expectation that they won’t act like money grabbing cunts and I don’t think that’s actually unfair.
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Post by Whizzo on Sept 21, 2024 10:18:35 GMT
There'll be something else to attack him over him soon enough I'm sure.
The front page of today's Mail is saying how catastrophic Starmer's polling is now after this nonsense, I'm sure that's a real concern given the next election isn't until 2029.
Maybe by then Paul Dacre will finally be gone and the Mail won't be quite so fucking shite.
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 21, 2024 10:19:34 GMT
I'm genuinely amazed they didn't realise that. I'm just as disappointed they didn't realise how bad it would look as I am by them acting like they're just the same as any other bunch of MPs (mainly because I always believed the latter anyway)
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 21, 2024 10:24:12 GMT
And I think the polling matters.
Generally political support is lost rather than gained in the longer term. The electorate tend to give the benefit of the doubt and then get increasingly pissed off as they realise they were misled by the promises made. ( You'd think they'd learn). Neither starmer nor labour were especially popular to begin with. Their massive majority is built on sand: narrow wins and a low turn out where the Tory voters split or stayed at home. They are not at a position of strength and the fact they're losing support so early on.
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,656
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 21, 2024 10:24:16 GMT
This is the head-smacking thing. I have had a ‘herp derp Labour can’t fix everything in a month’ from someone about this but this is exactly the kind of thing that’s in their gift to fix *immediately*.
It was bent when the tories did it, it’s bent when Labour do it.
We complained about everyone wetting their beaks for years and these should have been day one, hour one, minute one rule changes.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 21, 2024 13:24:25 GMT
How is it bent though? They were given a donation to help their campaign, and they used it to help with campaigning?
Or have I missed something somewhere?
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,656
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 21, 2024 17:27:12 GMT
Bent in the way that there is no such thing as a free lunch. There is a gulf between ‘it was properly declared’ and it being morally acceptable for a public servant to accept goods and services from millionaire businessmen.
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Post by baihu1983 on Sept 21, 2024 17:55:27 GMT
Glasses that cost over 1k.
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 21, 2024 18:50:38 GMT
I think a few pages back here or somewhere else people were sharing stories of how they can't accept anything from anybody in their work in case shock horror they give one supplier slightly preferential treatment or some bollocks. Quite right too. The PM of the country tho? Someone who can change the law or get people sent to die in foreign lands. Yeah, whatever, anybody can give whatever they want, as long a they tell us?
Fuck off. If people are giving significant chunks of money, they're expecting *something* in return. They're not idiots. And they're doing that to one of if not the most powerful people in the country? Come on.
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Bongo Heracles
Junior Member
Technically illegal to ride on public land
Posts: 4,656
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Sept 21, 2024 19:05:42 GMT
Due to the industry I work in I have to do an hours worth of tedious e-learning every year to remind me not to accept gifts or ‘hospitality’ from third parties.
Similar to when the conservatives ignored audit recommendations that could have saved lives in Covid, ‘core national infrastructure’ is held to a higher standard and more scrutiny than the government we ultimately answer to and as some faceless drone, I’m held to higher standards than our actual PM (Boris having a CCJ, for example, would disqualify him from holding my job as it puts him at a bribe risk).
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cubby
Full Member
doesn't get subtext
Posts: 6,394
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Post by cubby on Sept 21, 2024 19:43:12 GMT
I just take any gift that comes my way. At least I would if anyone would bother to...
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Onny
Junior Member
Posts: 1,153
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Post by Onny on Sept 21, 2024 21:32:02 GMT
Aside from the morality of it, it’s just the terrible optics of saying “we will have to stop fuel payments and make tough spending decisions” while accepting £1000s in gifts.
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Post by manfromdelmonte on Sept 21, 2024 22:06:28 GMT
Ultimately, it's about the optics. If we get down into the morality of donations to political parties, we're going to have to construct an entire new system, because the Conservative party is literally funded by donations from rich individuals and companies.
At what point does "I'm going to donate to this party because these are the types of policies I believe will work."; become "I scratch your back, now you scratch mine."?
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JonFE
Junior Member
Uncomfortably numb...
Posts: 1,959
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Post by JonFE on Sept 21, 2024 22:37:56 GMT
"Uxorem Caesaris tam suspicione quam crimine carere oportet",
or as we Greeks say,
"It's not enough for Caesar's wife to be honest, she must also be seen to be honest."
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Post by baihu1983 on Sept 22, 2024 6:32:43 GMT
Issue is this is the sort of thing they have been calling others out for over the years. The press was always going to start going for them as soon as they got in power.
I didn't think labour would start turning on one another this quickly though.
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apollo
Junior Member
Posts: 1,731
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Post by apollo on Sept 22, 2024 7:14:27 GMT
I have to agree it does not look good when they are saying we have to make tough decisions to fix the UK and then they take gifts etc etc. Its not just the tory papers that are out to stick the knife in, its also corbynista or tankies type who hate anyone if its not their leader. OAP's fuel benefits should be fairly means tested but the torygraph would have you believe, starmer is freezing the OAP like Mr freeze
There has been a lot of own goals from Labour recently after the good start after the election. The fact is Tories getting in next election would be a disaster and all the other smaller parties are just awful
Of course the tory papers and supporters had zero issues with the PPE scandal - billions wasted and some went to tories friends and donors, Sunak's wifes investments and her no-dom status. Actual serious levels of corruption and they were barely a footnote in the media.
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X201
Full Member
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Post by X201 on Sept 22, 2024 7:27:25 GMT
You just know that the the right wing press are digging away trying to find something that allows them to link Starmer’s time at the CPS to the Fayed rapeyness.
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Post by dfunked on Sept 22, 2024 7:29:48 GMT
Starmer KNOWINGLY SHOPPED at HARRODS while MONSTER OPERATED
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 22, 2024 9:03:40 GMT
Ultimately, it's about the optics. If we get down into the morality of donations to political parties, we're going to have to construct an entire new system, because the Conservative party is literally funded by donations from rich individuals and companies. At what point does "I'm going to donate to this party because these are the types of policies I believe will work."; become "I scratch your back, now you scratch mine."? It's pretty easy to make a distinction between making a donation to a party generally, and making specific donations to individuals in power and influencing their decision making. So I'd start there. Ofc large donors are also having an influence but that I think is a harder nut to crack. |
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Post by Reviewer on Sept 22, 2024 15:45:52 GMT
And even if that nut was cracked, there’s the issue of small donations from large groups of people. It’s still influencing the voting and policies of parties through money.
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Post by Wizzard_Ook on Sept 22, 2024 16:24:43 GMT
For some reason some stories land more than others and I think like the expense scandal around 2010, this stuff is more relatable to everyday voters because it’s everyday items that people can relate to. Doesn’t help labour presented themselves as holier than thou in the run up and in the election.
Doesn’t excuse the double standards by the press though. It’s obvious what they’re doing. And it’s pretty grim seeing the cogs work in action the way they’re doing, especially when they’ve ignored so much over the last 15 years.
Something labour need to wise up to quickly.
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