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Post by Whizzo on Jul 29, 2024 13:05:05 GMT
And there's the Brexit factor as well, no other Tory government has directly inflicted damage on that scale to the country deliberately like that. People will not forget it.
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Post by clemfandango on Jul 29, 2024 13:15:37 GMT
Yup. The problem they have is that if the notion that you become more conservative as you get older to protect what you have, they have ensured that a generation have fuck all to protect. That and the fact they are fucking useless and offer nothing to anyone. Like I’ve said a few times, I am their bread and butter. A middle aged white homeowner, kids and a reasonably well paying job and they offered me literally no incentive to vote for them in the last election unless I disliked migrants and trans people. This... An old mate of mine is an ardent Tory, 50 years old and reads the Daily Mail everyday. He's white, married with kids, 6 figure salary. Properly brainwashed by years of reading that shit rag, wanting to protect what he has and thinks he has worked harder than everybody else. He also despises Labour (especially Corbyn and now Rayner). However he is not a racist or homophobic etc. and could not bring himself to vote Tory, so he held his nose and voted Lib Dem. He would quickly turn back and vote Tory if they dropped the far right bullshit and got rid of the nutters, so I'm hoping they carry on doing what they are doing as they are basically destroying the party in the long run. Its quite amazing to see how badly Johnson fucked everything up for them by placing all his bets on Brexit and winning the red wall seats. Then getting rid of the Tory centre right MPs, leaving the party with useless sycophants, the ERG racists and infecting his party with the new red wall nutters. History will not be kind to the fat blond Thundercunt.... |
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robthehermit
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Post by robthehermit on Jul 29, 2024 13:18:49 GMT
And there's the Brexit factor as well, no other Tory government has directly inflicted damage on that scale to the country deliberately like that. People will not forget it. Yes they will, people have short memories. Labour can continue with their current "At least we're not the Tories" campaign and that will probably carry them through the next election, but after that if things are still percieved as broken (regardless of fault) they'll be out. |
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Post by Chopsen on Jul 29, 2024 14:00:31 GMT
The interesting thing about house prices as a ratio to earnings is that they have gone up massively over the decades....under labour. www.economicshelp.org/blog/5568/housing/uk-house-price-affordability/The first graph is at its steepest during the Blair years. (yes, yes. That doesn't account for the fall under the Tory government before *that* and all those people going in negative equity and what have you so you could argue that much of it is a correction. But that's not to the point.The correction, over the long term, should be down according to average earnings, no upwards.) |
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Jul 29, 2024 19:27:04 GMT
And there's the Brexit factor as well, no other Tory government has directly inflicted damage on that scale to the country deliberately like that. People will not forget it. The problem with that is that Labour haven't and seemingly can't make brexit out to be the bad thing that it is. Brexit was completely absent from the election from both parties. |
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Post by anthonyuk on Jul 29, 2024 21:09:51 GMT
Though I've never voted for them, I can understand why conservative values appeal to some, especially to the older generation.
Talking with a relative on her 90th birthday over the weekend as an extreme case. Coming from a generation where you worked long hard hours and if you didn't have money, you didn't have nice things, sometimes even eat. Expecting nothing, standing on your own two feet and expecting no help from anyone rather than seen as harsh or mean spirited, was and still is seen as an honest way of living.
Even people my own age who've worked hard all their lives to achieve a position or status, share a similar mindset. The idea of paying more tax to help others makes them angry.
I guess it helps when 80% of the countries media props you up, but what blows my own mind is how the Tories managed to use slight of hand to make all these people who believe in a rose tinted "work hard and be rewarded" world that they in some way represent them.
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minimatt
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Post by minimatt on Jul 29, 2024 21:34:56 GMT
i walk old folk round the cotswolds most weeks (tomorrow morning next one) and i know better than to talk too much politics but from what i've gleaned it's not so much that you get more conservative (small and large C) as you get older but rather you just stick with how you voted when you were 30 and never really update your position - and that means a lot of boomers who went tory in the 1970s because something about strikes and power rationing(? - i was but a twinkle in hanover in the 70s)
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Post by Dougs on Jul 29, 2024 21:43:23 GMT
I finally got around to watching the John Oliver pre-election special. Absolutely brutal and if it had aired during the pre-election period, it could have been even worse. Funny as.
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Post by Chopsen on Jul 29, 2024 21:54:43 GMT
The thing with the "I've worked hard" lot who are now in their 60s+ is that they might have worked hard, but a lot of their wealth is down to luck and timing. Things like private sector defined benefit schemes, tripple locked state pensions, subsidised higher education, decades worth of above inflation growth in their assets (property), and now by demographics belonging to a voting block that no party can ingore: all these have got nothing to do with the effort they may or may not have put in.
Meanwhile, the current generation of young adults are taxed more as a group for the services and support they get and have housing costs which are more expensive as a function of their pay. They have access to worse pensions and are provided with less job security.
The whole purpose of a state is to provide a security and and a safety net to people, and to ensure wealth is shared to that end. Otherwise why even have a state, as the free market will protect wealth by the inherent fact that wealth provides security and power without any extra special sauce.
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Post by Reviewer on Jul 29, 2024 21:55:05 GMT
With the old people I know they just get more interested in themselves and a general hatred for anyone or anything which might challenge their views from decades ago.
The world is getting more liberal, they aren’t and then they get more stubborn to go with it.
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minimatt
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Post by minimatt on Jul 29, 2024 22:04:07 GMT
in defence of the gloucestershire pensioners they're pretty liberal, they might vote tory (this time round i suspect a few went lib dem) but because most of them have grandchildren and one of them, or one of their friends, will be gay. the culture wars shit really didn't land with a substantial subset of old folks who might occasionally get the language wrong but god forbid you talk shit about their grandson and his husband
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Jul 29, 2024 22:06:09 GMT
i walk old folk round the cotswolds most weeks (tomorrow morning next one) and i know better than to talk too much politics but from what i've gleaned it's not so much that you get more conservative (small and large C) as you get older but rather you just stick with how you voted when you were 30 and never really update your position - and that means a lot of boomers who went tory in the 1970s because something about strikes and power rationing(? - i was but a twinkle in hanover in the 70s) I’m no political scientist but I think the Cotswolds seems like it would be a good study on why the Conservatives got absolutely trounced. As much as I despise the phrase, I think we do have a *lot* of educated, long-standing ‘socially liberal, fiscally conservative’ Tories who have been completely alienated by the basket case the party has become, opening the door for a lot of Lib Dem flipping. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Jul 29, 2024 22:06:27 GMT
Jinx
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minimatt
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Post by minimatt on Jul 29, 2024 22:07:54 GMT
yeah exactly that
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Post by Bill in the rain on Jul 30, 2024 5:56:23 GMT
www.bbc.com/news/articles/c6p24zpeg05oSeems like something the government should have been doing all along. Although I assume the papers are going to scream about cutting fuel payments to billions of poor loaded pensioners and capitulating to the unions and all that jazz. Doing the right thing seems to so often clash with doing what the media will clamor for/against.
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Post by Dougs on Jul 30, 2024 6:50:52 GMT
Yep. Already the gullible idiots are up in arms. My brother included, banging on about his father-in-law who will lose out. His father in-law is 90, lives in a house worth at least £500k, has a public sector pension as well as state pension and is not short of a few bob. He doesn't need it, as handy as I am sure it is.
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Post by Reviewer on Jul 30, 2024 7:34:54 GMT
My in-laws are moaning about it, they said they were going to spend that fuel allowance on a couple a nice Michelin star meals, which they’ll still have.
Damn labour picking on pensioners.
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mcmonkeyplc
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Post by mcmonkeyplc on Jul 30, 2024 8:21:46 GMT
These old fuckers need to answer a simple question, would you like your free money or would you like your grandkids to get an education?
Don't have grandkids? Would you like to not die from your next fall?
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Vortex
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Post by Vortex on Jul 30, 2024 8:37:31 GMT
And this is really the thing. A blanket fuel allowance payment for all isn't really required. My folks appreciiate getting it, but do they *need* it? No and they fully admit that. They are well off and feel it should be means tested so those that really need it get it.
TBH, I would also do this with prescriptions up here too. If it's just a one-off I'll happily pay, I don't need the nhs to pick up the tab.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Jul 30, 2024 8:45:55 GMT
That Money Saving Martin guy reckons it should be based on council tax band rather than benefits as that would be fairer.
I don't know enough about either to know if that's true. Though he generally seems to know what he's on about.
The issues with means-testing testing these kinds of things are usually:
(a) Practical: The bureaucracy needed to do it would end up costing more than the cost of just giving it to everyone.
I can see that argument if it's a one-off thing, but given how many billions this change is projected to save, I doubt that's the case here.
(b) Ideological: Making such benefits means-tested is a slippery slope.
But I think loads of other payments are means-tested, so I think that ship has already sailed.
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minimatt
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Post by minimatt on Jul 30, 2024 9:03:13 GMT
just got back from a walkabout round painswick and having just yesterday said how nice and liberal and clued up "my" pensioners are, yeah winter fuel thing went down like a bucket of sick
with one exception, who i'll come back to, they don't really need it, saw it as a bonus for treats rather than life & death heating, but did make the valid point there's a cliff edge cut off which harms those on the line quite harshly
one exception who i've been trying to convince to claim pension credit but is resistant because they see that as "benefits" in a way they don't see their pension as a benefit or they didn't see winter fuel payments as a benefit. i guess this might - rightly - tip them into claiming
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robthehermit
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Post by robthehermit on Jul 30, 2024 9:17:56 GMT
"We're going to start GB Energy and save everyone £300 on their energy bills."
"We're going to means test fuel payments and take away everyone's £300."
God giveth and God taketh away.
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robthehermit
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Post by robthehermit on Jul 30, 2024 9:20:14 GMT
If it's any consolation, when GB Energy inevitably collapses taking our pensions with it we'll probably all qualify anyway.
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Post by Reviewer on Jul 30, 2024 9:34:08 GMT
Making any benefit means tested isn’t a slippery slope, it’s how it should work. The benefits are for those that need it. It’s irrelevant why they need it - whether they’ve been wasteful with money in the past or not been in a position to save. If the benefit is needed then it’s needed.
People with very comfortable pensions and savings shouldn’t be getting money for their fuel, especially when others are in far more need.
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Post by Reviewer on Jul 30, 2024 9:36:48 GMT
These old fuckers need to answer a simple question, would you like your free money or would you like your grandkids to get an education? Don't have grandkids? Would you like to not die from your next fall? I think many want free money. |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Jul 30, 2024 9:59:11 GMT
My gran is the apex of that. She’s on double pensions but is absolutely apoplectic if she hears about anyone getting a benefit or service she hasn’t had.
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Post by dfunked on Jul 30, 2024 12:36:34 GMT
I bet the DM comments section is a laugh from the usual "sort out the bloody benefit scroungers" mob.
Wait... Not like that!
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jul 30, 2024 13:13:50 GMT
Tbh I think a fair amount of people legitimately don't see state pension payments or anything related to government pensions as part of the benefits system.
It also leads to how certain benefits get a stigma and are treated differently when reported on by the media. Look at the difference between Carer's Allowance reporting and JSA/PDP.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Jul 30, 2024 13:19:54 GMT
More worrying than the fuel payments thing isthat she's cancelled the Social Care cap.
Personally, I'm not sure out was the best solution, but **something** needs to be done to sort out Social Care, and the more governments keep kicking it down the line the bigger the problems are going to be for everyone.
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robthehermit
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Post by robthehermit on Jul 30, 2024 13:34:39 GMT
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