Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Jun 18, 2024 10:39:52 GMT
Yeah. I'm in favour of the government not having much control over anything in terms of the day to day stuff, and even legislation should be a lot harder than it currently is. I have legit concerns about the idea of labour having an eye watering majority and no effective united opposition, even if they are the "good guys". ("Good guys" being a vibes driven subjective judgement and projection). If the last five years has taught us anything, its that even having a thumping majority is no help if your ideas are absolute bullshit
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Post by Chopsen on Jun 18, 2024 10:44:06 GMT
Nah.
The government has very little control over money supply or inflation. Intentionally so.
It's outsourced it to private banks. Still has to be backed by government, otherwise it's meaningless. Point stands, without the issuer of the currency, no one would have any money in which to pay taxes. The government does not take your tax money, put it into a large account labelled 'government spending' either. Taxation is the destruction of money from the economy. It's cyclical.
The tax justice/small state/sovereign lot (delete as appropriate) mistake is that they view it as linear. Yes, spending happens before the tax is collected, but that doesn't mean that it ceases to exist - public spending goes back in to the economy and is even then taxed itself in many cases (e.g. public sector workers paying paye, private sector contractors paying corporation tax). And without tax, it is being funded entirely by debt.
The extreme end of the MMT argument would say that therefore tax is not necessary, but mostly even among those that argue that MMT is a thing will accept that there are constraints to that. If you borrow too much, the cost of borrowing goes up, and you (the govt) need to pay the cost (the interest) on that debt. Where are you going to get the money to pay the interest if you rely on borrowing to pay the interest?
The main lesson from MMT is that government finances are not like household finances. You don't have an absolute level of borrow you can't go beyond, governments can always borrow. The central bank can, as shown, get involved with financing that via QE to keep the cost of borrowing down. But there are constraints to that as well, and it is inflationary. (One definition of inflation is the relative value of money to the goods and services you can buy with it. You increase the supply, the decreased the value). The question is not "can they borrow" but "is it a good idea to borrow at this amount".
This is no longer a matter of theoretical debate. Empirically Truss showed there are constraints on the govt of the day going "hold my beer" on MMT thinking because that's what she did. She probably didn't talk about it directly in those terms, but it's interesting how people on either extreme of the political spectrum find something in MMT they like.
Also, "It's outsourced it to private banks. Still has to be backed by government, otherwise it's meaningless." Nope, it's backed by the central bank, the Bank of England. The government merely maintain economic stability (HA!) in the more general sense that allows them to take their role (and tells them what inflation target to take).
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Post by Chopsen on Jun 18, 2024 10:46:43 GMT
Yeah. I'm in favour of the government not having much control over anything in terms of the day to day stuff, and even legislation should be a lot harder than it currently is. I have legit concerns about the idea of labour having an eye watering majority and no effective united opposition, even if they are the "good guys". ("Good guys" being a vibes driven subjective judgement and projection). If the last five years has taught us anything, its that even having a thumping majority is no help if your ideas are absolute bullshit True, but it rather have something more robust that "bunch of egomaniacs descend in to never ending purity spirals and narcissistic in-fights" as my brake on dictatorship.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Jun 18, 2024 10:56:40 GMT
Its the old 'FPTP' thing again, so that's never going to change.
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Post by stuz359 on Jun 18, 2024 10:56:55 GMT
It's outsourced it to private banks. Still has to be backed by government, otherwise it's meaningless. Point stands, without the issuer of the currency, no one would have any money in which to pay taxes. The government does not take your tax money, put it into a large account labelled 'government spending' either. Taxation is the destruction of money from the economy. It's cyclical.
The tax justice/small state/sovereign lot (delete as appropriate) mistake is that they view it as linear. Yes, spending happens before the tax is collected, but that doesn't mean that it ceases to exist - public spending goes back in to the economy and is even then taxed itself in many cases (e.g. public sector workers paying paye, private sector contractors paying corporation tax). And without tax, it is being funded entirely by debt.
The extreme end of the MMT argument would say that therefore tax is not necessary, but mostly even among those that argue that MMT is a thing will accept that there are constraints to that. If you borrow too much, the cost of borrowing goes up, and you (the govt) need to pay the cost (the interest) on that debt. Where are you going to get the money to pay the interest if you rely on borrowing to pay the interest?
The main lesson from MMT is that government finances are not like household finances. You don't have an absolute level of borrow you can't go beyond, governments can always borrow. The central bank can, as shown, get involved with financing that via QE to keep the cost of borrowing down. But there are constraints to that as well, and it is inflationary. (One definition of inflation is the relative value of money to the goods and services you can buy with it. You increase the supply, the decreased the value). The question is not "can they borrow" but "is it a good idea to borrow at this amount".
This is no longer a matter of theoretical debate. Empirically Truss showed there are constraints on the govt of the day going "hold my beer" on MMT thinking because that's what she did. She probably didn't talk about it directly in those terms, but it's interesting how people on either extreme of the political spectrum find something in MMT they like.
Also, "It's outsourced it to private banks. Still has to be backed by government, otherwise it's meaningless." Nope, it's backed by the central bank, the Bank of England. The government merely maintain economic stability (HA!) in the more general sense that allows them to take their role (and tells them what inflation target to take).
I would agree with all of that. Reality is of course more complicated and I would never propose an MMT style economy in a medium sized open economy like ours. There is of course room to maneuver, room for the government to invest. Just a caveat, the BoE is owned by and backed by the state.
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Post by Whizzo on Jun 18, 2024 12:21:50 GMT
He's not even bothering any more.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jun 18, 2024 12:27:35 GMT
He's not even bothering any more. At this point it comes across as someone who knows they're losing their job soon so is just shit posting.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Jun 18, 2024 12:44:57 GMT
I was just reading about how Sunak is basically just Liz Truss with a smart haircut and to prove a point he comes out with this 'THAT. IS. A. DISGRACE' bullshit
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otto
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Post by otto on Jun 18, 2024 13:30:52 GMT
He's not even bothering any more.
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otto
New Member
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Post by otto on Jun 18, 2024 15:50:02 GMT
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Post by kingbambino on Jun 18, 2024 16:23:15 GMT
Finally watched that awful itv debate thing . The only 2 that came over half decent to me were Daisy Cooper and the Welsh guy. It’s shocking Lib Dem’s aren’t getting more media time than Farage . I was voting Labour but I’m slightly tempted by them now but would this just be a wasted vote ?
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Jun 18, 2024 16:28:10 GMT
Finally watched that awful itv debate thing . The only 2 that came over half decent to me were Daisy Cooper and the Welsh guy. It’s shocking Lib Dem’s aren’t getting more media time than Farage . I was voting Labour but I’m slightly tempted by them now but would this just be a wasted vote ?
Check out www.getvoting.org and stopthetories.vote for an insight into whether voting Lib Dem would be a waste of time in your constituency. (I realise that in saying this, I'm assuming you want to vote the Tories out!)
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Post by kingbambino on Jun 18, 2024 16:37:16 GMT
Finally watched that awful itv debate thing . The only 2 that came over half decent to me were Daisy Cooper and the Welsh guy. It’s shocking Lib Dem’s aren’t getting more media time than Farage . I was voting Labour but I’m slightly tempted by them now but would this just be a wasted vote ?
Check out www.getvoting.org and stopthetories.vote for an insight into whether voting Lib Dem would be a waste of time in your constituency. (I realise that in saying this, I'm assuming you want to vote the Tories out!) Yes it advises Labour so I’m still likely to vote them. Didn’t help when watching the debate that I’m not the biggest fan of Rayner as a public speaker
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Post by Whizzo on Jun 18, 2024 17:36:40 GMT
Frog faced cunt being upset about his vetting company not vetting takes an even funnier turn.
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Post by muddyfunster on Jun 18, 2024 17:37:43 GMT
He's not even bothering any more. PORK MARKETS!!!
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Post by muddyfunster on Jun 18, 2024 17:41:23 GMT
Frog faced cunt being upset about his vetting company not vetting takes an even funnier turn. It is absolute solid gold. Almost as if detail does actually matter more than vibes! Also as some are already pointing out: - huge self own to publicise the waste of money. - have also admitted that none of their candidates are vetted.
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Post by technoish on Jun 18, 2024 18:23:53 GMT
What's that sound? That's the sound of a thousand journalists doing deep dive into all Reform candidates' social media histories...
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X201
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Post by X201 on Jun 18, 2024 18:36:22 GMT
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Post by elstoof on Jun 18, 2024 19:16:45 GMT
Pretty amazing that a man currently campaigning for his 8th attempt at becoming an elected member of parliament is bemoaning “the establishment”
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Post by Jambowayoh on Jun 18, 2024 19:22:44 GMT
He really is playing that Trump playbook isn't he?
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minimatt
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would you like us to assign someone to butter your muffin?
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Post by minimatt on Jun 18, 2024 19:33:47 GMT
the teeny tiny upside if he does win a seat is he'll spend the next five years having to declare (some) interests and my naive hope is his man of the people schtick will wither under the daylight
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Post by Danno on Jun 18, 2024 19:39:41 GMT
the teeny tiny upside if he does win a seat is he'll spend the next five years having to declare (some) interests and my naive hope is his man of the people schtick will wither under the daylight Yeah just like that dude that had a fortnight long tantrum in the media when Coutts closed his account.
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otto
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Post by otto on Jun 18, 2024 19:58:51 GMT
After Johnson making it to PM, I’ll never underestimate the capacity of the voting public and right wing press to put an obviously incompetent and dishonest chancer into a position where he can wreak havoc. Not that Farage hasn’t already done that.
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Post by simple on Jun 18, 2024 20:03:37 GMT
What's that sound? That's the sound of a thousand journalists doing deep dive into all Reform candidates' social media histories... I doubt it even needs a snorkel
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askew
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Post by askew on Jun 18, 2024 20:08:01 GMT
He's not even bothering any more. So many items are very keen to shout about how Bri’ish they are
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Post by Trowel 🏴 on Jun 18, 2024 20:24:53 GMT
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Post by Vandelay on Jun 18, 2024 20:34:27 GMT
After Johnson making it to PM, I’ll never underestimate the capacity of the voting public and right wing press to put an obviously incompetent and dishonest chancer into a position where he can wreak havoc. Not that Farage hasn’t already done that. It really is incredible that after selling people how glorious Brexit is going to be and it all being clearly proven objectively bullshit, there is a portion of the population that will still say "yes, this is a man I want to continue listening to". And the media do bugger all to counteract this narrative that he is talking truth to power. BBC once again caving into his demands today - www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/bbc-nigel-farage-question-time-nick-robinson-reform-b2564594.htmlBecause he doesn't appear on Question Time enough already!?
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X201
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Post by X201 on Jun 18, 2024 20:36:12 GMT
I’d be interested to know what triggered the 25-34 age group on 13th June 🤔
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Jun 18, 2024 21:25:02 GMT
I'd find trying to conceive of "British Culture" without Goodness Gracious Me inside it very strange. A top reason I'll never join Reform.
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X201
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Post by X201 on Jun 18, 2024 21:36:13 GMT
I'd find trying to conceive of "British Culture" without Goodness Gracious Me inside it very strange. A top reason I'll never join Reform. Even if some of the sketches in it pay (ahem) homage to ones in Channel 4’s Absolutely, which aired 10 years earlier.
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